Rather than our corrupt western governments that only line their own and big businesses pockets...?

Capitalism and communism both have their ups and downs. With the Republican party in control, capitalism becomes bad. When a government like the soviets and china comes to power, communism is bad. Sometimes I think to have a better society, it may be best to have a tiny bit of communism mixed with a lot of capitalism. That way the ecomony can stay free, but big business can be controlled better. But remember, the way things work out depends on political parties (which in my opinion should be outlawed, they don't get any thing but except cause arguments)

China and the Soviet Union didn't take communism for what it meant: everyone being equal. Their governments now elevate themselves over the common people, and oppress them. The only thing about true communism that they used was that the government is in control of all property.

You also have to remember that the guy who created communism, Karl Marx, was not an evil man. He wrote his communist papers during the 1890/1900's era, where factory workers were treated horribly by the factory owners, who lived like royalty when their workers lived in tiny houses with over five people to a room. The guy was simply trying to make everyone equal. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao Zedong misinterpreted what communism met, and screwed it up bad.

But in the end, pure communism doesn't work. Thats what caused the Soviet Union to break up. China communist dictatorship will end soon. People's Republic, HAH!

I believe that, despite its very few faults, capitalism will eventually be the ecomony system. Countries such as Vietnam are now half-and-half.

Etrius

Thank you Darkstar7 for your comments. I hope you will permit me to respond to some things you said which raised my interest.



i) I think any media - government controlled, privately owned, American or Chinese is not going to tell "the whole truth". Simply by reporting something as news, that item is cast as newsworthy and important. Why report on Tibet, Darfur and Zimbabwe, but not other places where I respectfully submit things are just as important or bad or significant. Then there's the way something are reported - I note that the difference between a terrorist, a freedom fighter, a matyr and a guerilla warrior seems to be whose reporting the story.

ii) I sense that overseas, there's the perception that the Chinese government has Mind Control Centers beaming images of big brother Mao into our lounge rooms every day (does that mean China will never influence flip?) With respect, we have more independent thought than we are given credit. As mentioned in the America superpower thread, we have been writing letters to editors, blogging, criticising politicians, holding community participation meetings, calling talkback radio for a long time - and continue to do so. We criticise XXX party official for being corrupt, we blame YYY government member for not responding to ZZZ issue. Jump into a taxi and hear the latest news on how China should be changed. We are not immediately shot if we don't bow down to the Chairman Mao idol that is supposedly on even street corner or write something not 110% positive about China on a website.

iii) You point out that our government should be shaped into a better one. I completely agree. Most Chinese would completely agree. Our own government would completely agree. In many ways, it's bloated, it's overly bureaucratic, it sometimes is not in touch enough with common people, it has corruption etc.

I don't think Chinese people or the Chinese government has ever claimed we are perfection. So we need to change. There's another post where I mentioned some of the changes going through our government right now (reduction of the need to be a party member to hold senior ranks in government or public sector jobs, appointment of non-Party members to key portfolios like health and technology, intentional appointment of dissenting voices to top government positions). I agree that the change is frustratingly slow. But it is happening. Perhaps we don't talk about it enough in the media - but then again, in terms of priority - I am happy to see my government putting a priority on changing, rather than a priority on talking about change.



You might be referring to photos of sad old ladies defending their dumpling house from big tractors bulldozing their gardens. You raise a good point. Property development has been out of control here for the past decade - and the poor have certainly suffered so the rich can have their swimming pools and golf club memberships. I myself have contributed to the local media in the voice against rampant real estate development.

But the thing I might query here is it seems that:

i) In America, if someone is hit by a police officer, it's police brutality. In China, it's the bad government.

ii) In America, if someone has their house bulldozed by developer, it's immoral capitalistic development companies. In China, it's the bad government.

iii) In America, if someone pollutes a river, it's the uncaring greedy chemical company. In China, it's the bad government.

Real estate development has become far more regulated, controlled and requiresment of compensation, resident consultation etc. are more enforced then they have been before. Are some residents still bullied? Certainly, but less than before. I see improvement in the way the government is handling things. Improvement that is never credited in international media.



We're trying. And to be fair, the government is responding. I have confidence in my government. As I keep saying, it's not perfect and I comment frequently locally about what needs to be changed. But it's not as bad as it's made out to be. To tie things back to the beginning of this post and the comment about media - we never believe that China is as heaven as it's made out to be by our media; so I query why other's believe China is as hell as it's made out to be by your media.

I'm sorry if this post is too aggressive - it's meant to be responding, not accusing. I do often feel that the China I read about in the international news, blogs and forums is very much not that China that I live in every day.

mightygoobi is (hopefully) going to be arranging for me to go to China and examine the theory that the Chinese do not like sex. (To disprove it). He is going to become a pimp... so, if I have any luck I will end up with a Chinese wife.. Would that make my marriage related to China at that point?

  

@mightygoobi

If you sir, are reflective of how a significant number of the people of China think. Then we in America have a lot to fear from you, because with the resources China has at its disposal you (china) could unleash a level of social, political and industrial ideas and practices that would push America aside.

(in case when your translating this you miss it the “have a lot to fear remark is made as “tongue and cheek”)

Oh and another thing, Al Sharpton came to Philadelphia right after I was talking to you the other night, he came the very next day in fact..

GeneralEtrius, I hope you will permit me to comment on something you wrote:





As I understand, the accepted wisdom is that China's government "oppresses" us. We are lacking in human rights, rule of law. It is hoped that one day the Chinese common folk will throw off the shackles of oppression and rise up against the evil dictatorship of China who rule China with an iron fist.

I hear and read this position a lot in western Press. One place such though is infrequently though, is inside China.

As mentioned GeneralEtrius, I am Chinese and live in Beijing. I regularly complain in local forums about some law that was passed that I disagree with, some government action that I found outrageous, some local environmental issue that upsets me.

But I never feel oppressed or shackled or downtrodden. I recognise that governing a country of 1.3 billion can't be easy. I don't think the government is doing a 100% perfect job, but I don't think they are doing a bad one.

I have a job. I can get educated. I don't have enough money to buy my own place, but my rent is reasonable. On weekends, I go to bars to get drunk with friends or force my girlfriend to watch the Lakers vs. Cavaliers game with me or go to the library to research my PhD. I'm saving my money to take a holiday in Australia. I eat well - and I wish I had a bit more money to spend on computer games.

It's better here in China now than 10 years ago. 5 years ago. Last year. And I have a feeling that it will be better tomorrow than it is today. And our not perfect government should be credited for that.

If our life was as bad as it's made out to be in western press, I suspect they'd be a great deal more uniform dissatisfaction and unrest in China. If the government REALLY was that bad, wouldn't we all hate it?

There are 3 potential reasons why I might be saying all this:

1. Mightygoobi is lying. I've seen all the news reports on TV. China is a horrible place and the government is EVIL.

You're right that western press paints a pretty dim view of life here. And China does a terrible job of responding. But think - if the ONLY news you ever got about America was from Rev. Al Sharpton, Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Jon Stewart, how would you see America? I humbly suggest then that this is sort of what I feel when I see the international press on China. It's ALL bad. It's all the BADEST of the BAD. If BBC does an interview with 1000 Chinese citizens and 999 say China is nice and 1 says her brother was tortured by the police, who gets newstime?

As I keep saying, we do have lots and lots and lots of problems here. But we do some things right too.

2. Mightygoobi is a brainwashed drone of the Communist Party. See what they are doing to their youth? The whole country is BRAINWASHED!

I guess this could be true. But we are constantly criticised for having a government which is backward, corrupt, inefficient and inept. And yet this is the same government that can wipe the minds of 1.3 billion people?

3. Mightygoobi posts far too frequently and passionately in this forum. He's obviously a Communist propaganda agent or government official.

It's true that I have suddenly been posting far more here than I ever intended. I guess I do feel passionate about talking about my country. Now - this forum is a Stardock forum on Galactic Civilizations 2. I suspect that this forum is not the top priority for the Chinese Propaganda and Secret Service.

So I respectfully argue a fourth point - that maybe China is not tha bad.

I do respect your point of view GeneralEtrius and given the level of English media prowess that my government has, I understand why you have that view. I just wanted to suggest that the Chinese government and life here in China is not as bad as it's made out to be.

I learned the words 'pimp' and 'hoes' from watching WWF on payTV. There was a character called the Godfather who used the words a lot. As far as I could tell, he wasn't really talking too much about finding a wife. I guess my English really is bad.   



My dictionary comes up with a pretty strange definition for 'tongue and cheek'. I presume from context that you mean 'I'm joking'.

If you have watched your news, you'll note that no one in China ever smiles or laughs and we were dark green khaki overcoats and hats with red stars all the time. Therefore, I am not able to understand your attempt at humour.



More seriously, I'm no smarter or dumber than other Chinese - I'm just able to write English better. Actually, my frequent posting here in Stardock has meaning that I posting less my local forum. My absence has been commented and I have been writing about my experiences here. One response is "Americans don't understand!" "American media is biased!" "Americans hate us!"

I agree that Americans don't understand us. But wailing about it in our own language, in our own forums is not going to help. If Americans don't understand us, then surely it should be up to us to make ourselves understood.

Wow, that speaks to me. Seriously.

It is true that China is getting more advanced with economics. It seems that as you said, people lives are improving. However, you have to look at Tibet. The Communists seem to be opressing the people in Tibet. Its a crackdown all over again.

Mightgoobi: You say you have a good life in China, and I believe you. Hardly anyone really supports the Communist party, they just go with the flow these days. You have to remember that many people are poor because of the Communist party. However, a person I know is an economist, so I know about the status in China. The government my be getting lighter, compared to, say, North Korea, but it is still Communism. This government will eventually fall. Nothing lasts forever.

Etrius

The Chinese have since 2005 managed to remove over 400,000 people from poverty. Granted, in a country of 1.3 billion people, that number might seem small - but the number is steadily growing, and the far-flung regions of China are slowly recieving their due amount of attention and infrastructure. These are the signs of a fairly well organized government. Not the best - but then again, no government is the best.

The Chinese people are extremely proud, and they have the right to be. Their civilization is ancient and has truly endured more than most of the older civilizations today. The Chinese as a people might seem arrogant, but I have yet to encounter one chinese person who actually IS arrogant - and hence I am perplexed as to where this comes from.

I think the greatest problem that foreign press has is the fact that it cannot separate the concepts of the Chinese people and the Chinese government. The actions of the Chinese government, both the good and the bad, do not necessarily represent the beliefs of the Chinese people. Equating those two is a dangerous mistake.

The west blames China for its actions in Darfur - but the west messed up Iraq.

In the end, in this world there are only human beings - people who are selfish, greedy, noble, kind, stupid, intelligent, and it truly matters not where you are from, because in the end we're all the same

@mightygoobi

Yes I was meaning 'as a joke' more accurately I was spouting things that could be said by people who have an opposing point of view but making it obvious that I did not really think or believe what I was saying.

It is a style of speech that is difficult to convey in writing as the words say one thing but ones tone and body language say another and it is the tone and body language that are to be used to convey the real message.

oh not that anyone is intrested but on another thred someone called me a neo-con!

Spacepony:

Appreciate your kind words. Actually, I was also trying to be 'tongue and cheek'. I think I failed. Humour is one of the most difficult traits to master about a foreign language. So I go to the universal language of the smiley   

I'm sorry - I don't quite understand the word neo-con. I googled it and became more confused. However, I am concerned about turning a proper 'China' thread into a 'let's teach goobi English' thread - so feel free to PM me

Thank you GeneralEtrius. I make similar comments in Chinese political forums quite frequently. I usually get dismissed - "We have higher priorities than trying to educate Americans on how things are in China. Tackling our own problems, our own corruption, our own economic disparities is much more important".

But I remain of the belief that Americans and Chinese know a lot less about each other than we think we do. And communication will go a long way towards solving this problem. I look forward to the day when Chinese and Americans post in each others forums and exchange ideas on a regular basis.



Dear Sir, you and I have different views on what's happening in Tibet, based on different sources of information. I don't think either of us are completely right or wrong, nor do either of us have the full picture. I posted a few of my comments about Tibet with my experiences of Tibetans in a post earlier in this thread. You are very welcome to comment and criticise it and point out where I'm mistaken. My general point was that Tibet is not as good as what Chinese media makes it out to be, and not as bad as what western media makes it out to be. So I respectfully disagree with the use of terms "oppressing" and "crackdown".



My understanding of your point is that you have an expert economist colleague who has informed you about China - and in particular that Chinese people do not support the Party but rather just accept it. Furthermore, the Communist Party has made many people poor.

I accept that your colleague is expert in China, probably more well read than I. And he/she has a very valid opinion, based on scientific research and study. And it is one person's opinion. With the greatest of respect, I could not claim full knowledge of the United States by knowing one professor at Harvard. He may tell me that everyone in the US supports Barack Obama and that the Republican party has made many people poor in the US.

I can't claim to speak for 1.3 billion people. What I can say is that my life is easier, more educated, more wealthy and more comfortable than that of my parents with many more opportunities to travel, study, work, engage in exchange. I credit the Party and the Chinese government partly for that. So, speaking for just myself, I think the Party is doing pretty okay. I will scream black and blue about all the bad things it has done and I'll be first in the lines to say all the bad things - but I will also give full credit to a government that has improved my country from the generation of my parents to my own. I am not one of those people that you say the Communist Party has made poor.

I suppose I could be a freak, a mutant and an outlier - I suppose 'normal' Chinese might all be miserable and poor under this awful government. Well, if that's the case, I suppose I'm just very very lucky then... 1 in 1.3 billion lucky.

To your last point, will it last forever? I agree with you - it won't. One day it wil be replaced by something else. Perhaps a Star Federation and we'll all get a 30% increase in our economy. And for now, whilst this government makes my life and those of my countryfolk a bit better each day - well, I don't mind it going for a bit longer.

I'm sorry if I have come across as attacking you in my post - it is not my intentional and if I did so I apologise. I am trying to simply put forward my point of view which is different to your's own. And I welcome your discussions.

AH OMG OMG COMMIE OFFICIALS!!1!

CALL AREA 51 lulz!1111

--------

On a more serious note: Unless, mightygooby, you are a PRC Propaganda Official, or, possibly, all of you are actors in the reality show which I star in, unknowing to the fact that EVERYONE IS ACTING MUWHAHAHA, then you have changed my attitudes towards China slightly.

Damn, it was more fun to think of the PRC as some fiction-thriller crazy MCC place.

However: mightygooby, what are your perspectives on His Holiness the Dalai Lama XIV, and on the Republic of China?

China has a long way to go before it is accepted on the world stage. Though it has a lot of economic power now I doubt the government will be able to control the boom for much longer. Still there are strides towards a better equillibrium of control and freedom. Once that point is reached, and China lets go of it more sorid affair with human rights, then it might be a ligitamate power on the world stage.



This is too general. I can pick any country in the world and say the same. This somewhat post hoc thinking, for I do not think the Chinese party is really responsible for the improvements seeing as the world at large has offered these opportunities.

There are a few major issues with China that bug me.

1. Tiananmen Square.

2. Raping Tibetan land for raw materials and resources almost solely for Chinese profit.

3. How awful they're polluting the Earth and the forced displacement of agrarian sectors (not just for the Three Gorges Dam project).

4. Handling of Taiwan.

Chinese domination of Tibet and Taiwan is not unlike Soviet occupation and control of Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, or Ukraine. China runs quite the double-standard as they wanted the return of Hong Kong, yet Taiwan and Tibet had more of a right to be fully independent than Hong King did to be a Chinese entity if you look at the past hundred years. Most Chinese people can look past these issues because it benefits the Chinese people and government.

5. Why does China feel the right to exploit nations with corrupt governments? Sending arms shipments to Zimbabwe's Mugabi is basically saying, "We don't want democracy to work there - all we care about is a few extra bucks and we'll get it however we possibly can". The Chinese government has immense wealth and the ability to make good moral decisions, but continues in the tradition of exploiting people however it's possible. If it means pulling farmers off their plots of land because they need a new crop of cheap factory workers? So be it.

6. China does one good thing as a publicity stunt (one green effort) and then commits 150 atrocities that do the opposite. And it's nice to sit around talking in forums about the little things the country does that's right - but the big picture shows something entirely different. And sadly, if one person can get by OK, they're not going to raise a stink to support the millions of others being suppressed or hurt. Calling them "disenfranchised" is akin to calling beheaded chicken an "disoriented sprinter".

7. China has done almost nothing about intellectual property ownership. I mean, why do all the hard work of thinking things up when you can just copy it for free? Sure, China fines someone once every 5 years and maybe kills someone for allowing meds to kill and maim thousands of people worldwide... but when it comes down to it... The Chinese government is like the worst of the big Greedy American Corporations. No morals, no values, no worries about the environment, PR to fix anything, exploit whoever you can whenever you can, and set your and your high level partners up for life with wealth no one else could dream of.

I'd like to see your Leaders living day to day lives in Linfen, Tianying, or eating fish caught straight out of the affluent that dumps into the East China Sea from the Yangtze River. In about 3 years they'd be crazy, dead, or have the IQ of a rice pellet. If you understodd the ridiculous sums of money the government itself holds and what it could (no SHOULD)be doing to help people out - there's where the outrage should lie. Most Chinese people are very good people... the government (especially the local governors which are more corrupt) don't quite realize the wash-job the education and information system has done to them.

Mr Goobi,

Hi there, I have read your posts with interest and love the suggested idea that you are some sort of propaganda agent, if this is true then all I need from the rest of the world is for Arnold Shwarzetcetera to become president and reunite the worlds of fact and fantasy once and for all.

Anyways, I wonder if you would be so kind as to enlighten me on something a number of my fellow Australians believe about your government:

Is it true that China execute "criminals/inefficient citizens" and extract their organs to put in the bodies of "workers/model citizens?"