How is this different from the US? I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I would assume organs from those that have been killed (at least if they're usable after the various agents used in lethal injections) are used in organ transplants. I don't have a source, but it would seem plausible, and if they're going to get executed anyway I don't see the harm.

Hi Carbon...

I'll assume you're asking me, since you quoted me...

I have absolutely nfi what the difference is, I have not heard anything of the kind about the US in regards to such practises. I was simply taking the opportunity to learn from a Chinese poster, in a Chinese thread and perhaps make some inroads into the rumours that float around our media.

However, thanks for offering me the ditch of advesarialism, I may resort to it yet.

All of you seem to be forgetting one thing. China is still a developing country in many ways - and I don't mean this in a harsh way, it's just a statement that China has not reached its full economic potential as of yet. On the road to progress, sacrifices need to be made. Such sacrifices revolve around human rights abuse, environmental neglect, and others.

Wait a minute, this all sounds eerily familiar.

Didn't the US absolutely slaughter the native Indian population in order to strenghten its hold on the land? Didn't France ravage the east coast of Africa in search of diamonds? And lo and behold - wasn't the industrial revolution in the UK built on the backs of workers who died in horrible conditions in factories?

Ladies and gentlement - what China is doing is nothing new. It is making those sacrifices it deems as necessary to catch up to where the rest of the first countries of the world are. The same countries that used some of China's methods to get to where they are today. The only difference is that we can now see China's actions, they are reported on, and we can discuss them.

In the end folks - every nation is guilty of something, and the road to progress is paved with dead bodies and trees

Oh wow. Thank you to LordZarth, Great Emperor, jpinard, ubernaught and carbon016 for taking the time to read my words and also comment. I think I should say a few things at the beginning:

1. I don't think I'm well qualified to answer many of your questions. There is talk in this thread, the America superpower thread and the Tibet & Olmypics thread about human rights, Taiwan, Tibet, economic theory (I do not understand string of pearls). I don't understand it all (and in particular to jpinard, I might need some time to respond to your post. It's obvious very passionate and you wrote a lot. I don't understand it fully and I want to respect you with a decent answer so give me some time).

Here's what I usually talk about when I post on international gaming forums:
i) Why are Koreans better at Starcraft than us?
ii) Why do Koreans keep pking me in Diablo / Everquest / WOW (I think you have the same problem - but China usually gets placed with Korean servers so have a LOT of interaction with Korea)
iii) Why don't they translate Magic: The Gathering into Chinese? They've done it with Japanese and that's a harder language than Mandarin.
iv) Why don't they ever translate Chinese RPGs into English? You have Planescape:Torment and Knights of the Old Republic. We have some really good games too - but they never make it beyond our borders (big domestic market I am guess).

That's it! So all this politics stuff is hard. But I will try, just give me time.

2. I admit that I am very responsible for encouraging talk because I did lots of posting on China. I think there was some tongue and cheek joking that I might be a propaganda official. I promise I'm not. Here's the thinking. Sometimes, it's written that the Chinese government is like 'elder brother'.

I completely agree.

I fight and aruge with my elder brother. I think he's wrong, he bullies me. I criticise him for taking my bicycle, or going after my girlfriend or not giving me enough pocket money.

But when other people criticise my elder brother, when other people say he is a bully or mean or horrible - then I will defend him. Especially if those other people are outside of my family and don't know my brother well. Why? Because he is my brother. And even though we disagree all the time and I wish he'd treat me better, I also love him. And he is my family.

So, in the real world, as mentioned before, I ALWAYS complain about China. I regularly criticise this and that of the government. I am very upset by pollution, by traffic, by abuse, by beurcracy etc. But when people outside of China criticise China - then I feel I should respond... sometimes very passionately.

There's talk in the American superpower thread about what would happen if America went to war with China, how America could blow up China because Chinese technology is really bad, should America commit genocide on China because China has bad human rights and a bad economy and a bad communist government. Imagine you were Chinese. Would that not upset you a little bit?

How would you respond if every day, you read not only in the high scientic international press but also in simple down-to-earth forums that your government is terrible, that your country is evil, that everything good you do is a media propaganda but everything bad shows your true colours.

And how would you respond if all those writings and thoughts from your foreign friends about your life, your country, your world seems to be very different to the real life that you live each day?

I don't know how you would respond. I can not pretend to be your mind. But I guess for me, speaking only for me, I respond by writing. And that's why I write here.

I will now try and answer my best way to the questions that LordZarth, Great Emperor, jpinard, ubernaught and carbon016 asked. Also, if there are any other Chinese customers of Stardock, please help me write. 我肯定不是唯一在这里的中国人。

Lord Zarth wrote:



This is the hot and sensitive topic now and I'm sorry if I say things that other people disagree with.

I think the Dalai Lama is doing what he thinks is best for the people that follow him. I think he's an excellent speaker of English - a level of skill that I hope my own government leaders will one day have. There are differenting views of history which historians can better debate. A key issue for today seems to be that the Dalai Lama does not want independence but does want greater autonomy for Tibet or at least certain parts of Tibet and certain Tibetan people's. The Chinese government says that as long as the Dalai Lama does not claim independence, then all other details can be diplomatically resolved. So there is a disconnect and illogical combination there.

I suggest the key point is to define what "greater autonomy but not independence" truly means. Some definitions of "greater autonomy" that I have heard in the past are "self government, self laws, no need to pay any tax to the central government, ability to set up border tariffs with mainland China, self police, self religion, self department to speak with foreign governments, self flag and anthem". If that is true (and I don't pretend to

know if that is the current position of the Dalai Lama), then I query the difference between "greater autonomy" and "full independence". On the other hand, if "greater autonomy" means 'everything exactly the same as now, but Tibetan monks can decide on our own prayer time' - then obviously the Chinese government is being overly silly.

GreatEmperor wrote:



China's human rights is our regular black mark. No one in China will claim that this is a country of Angels. What sometimes I query is whether the countries that point the finger at us are truly better than us, or whether they are just better at image. Going further, could it be said that the true "legitimate powers on the world stage" do not have any "sordid affairs with human rights"?

The news that I read about other superpowers indicates to me that all governments do things that might be considered violations of human rights. Listen to phones and read emails without warrants, imprisonment without lawyer or trial because you are an enemy non-combater, 'waterboard' torture, genocide of indigenous populations, 'extraordinary rendition', regime change other countries on the grounds of weapons of mass destruction that are not there.

Now, it is no defence to say "you are bad, so I can be bad too" - I truly accept that. And I do not know if China does more or less human rights abuse than other countries. So China must must must improve certainly. I agree. And I hope that ALL governments improve - and not just simply become better at saying bad things in a nice way. Waterboarding and extraordinary rendition sounds awful - no matter who does it to who.



I accept that I can not give 100% credit to the Chinese government for my better life. I claim part credit for myself. I studied hard in school and won scholarships to study. I work hard and save money. I invest wisely in stocks. Also, I fully agree that the world in many ways has become 'better' in my generation - technology, infrastracture and dialoging is more. But if China, at least for me, has become a better place to live, can't I give SOME credit to the government?

Otherwise, how come the 'bad' things of China are all the government's fault, but the 'good' things are because "the world at large has offered these opportunities"? I don't mean to be accusing you here - I really don't understand where you draw the line?

Ubernaught wrote:



Wow. I have not heard about this. If it's true, it's quite disturbing. As I understand your Australian news, China kills bad people to take their body parts and put them in good people?

Honestly, I don't know Ubernaught. If it is true though, I think people would be very upset, enough to stop it or at least publicise it. And I've never read or heard about it.

But 'bad story' news works every ways. We read in China that in Australia, there was a big horse sickness and all the horses died and all the horse races were cancelled so even our Hong Kong horses were banned from going to Australia. It sounded a bit too exaggerated to me - and I didn't hear news so much from Australia - so you might know more about that story than me and whether our media has really blown up or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_China
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japans-rich-buy-organs-from-executed-chinese-prisoners-470719.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article745119.ece

I make no claims as to the accuracy of these articles; I only post the links so you know what people are referring to here.

I am a first generation Chinese American and I have heard the stories that my parents told me about China.

My grandmother was born to a well off family, but that all changed when the communist took over. Her family land was taken and her grandparents made to walk on glass and wear signs saying they are bad people.

My father did not have much growing up and his only life in China was to become a farmer, and he told me about picking up cow dung to sell as fertilizer.

My grandfather came to America first and brought over my father and grandmother in the late 70s.

When my father arrived he was in his early 20s, but with only a high school education and he did not speak a word of English and he had to make a living here so going to school was not a option for him, but he did enroll in a community college, but it was impossible for him to learn since he worked 12hr shifts at a noddle factory.
He knew that his only opportunities here for Chinese immigrants where to become a cook, go into construction, or work in a garment factory. Cooks where a dime a dozen and there was no way to support a family with that kind of money and going into construction would be hard when one got older and working in a factory does not pay much.

So he found work at bakeries and started doing small stuff like cleaning up, but kept an eye on the bakers and see how they would make their crafts, he started learning and would do work for them for free just so that he can learn, once he got done learning he would find another bakery and go in and learn more about baking and making cakes. Eventually with the savings and a few loans from family (he had no credit, could not get loan from any banks) he started his own bakery. It was a family business, my grandma, grandpa and my mom would work there. It was a successful business, with the earnings they made they were able to afford two houses and send three kids to college.

My father told that America is the land of opportunity, if you want it and work at it you will become successful. Now he visits the old country China every year, and each year he goes back he can see the changes, people are becoming more prosperous.

Ok then, thanks for your reply, I am enjoying your posts very much.



Cheers Ghostwes, appreciate that.



Sorta funny this actually... the journo's in their typical enthusiasm to harvest a wage, charged around from farm to farm and promptly did more to spread equine flu than anyone. As for the cancellations...yeah they did cancel a lot of them, at least until they could contain it. Well actually... my housemate tells me it was just in time for our multi-bazillion dollar spring racing carnival.

But that was probably just lucky eh?

It's probably common knowledge now that we've had a major earthquake here. There's quite a few emergencies projects starting to address the many issues that have come up and I'm going to do my best to be involved in as much as I can. I'm probably going to be away from this forum for a while.

Thank you for the comments on China - of all colours - to my forum compatriots. It sounds like there is plenty of interest in my country.

Whatever the media says, whatever the stories are that are written, I hope that we will all keep open minds. You are more than welcome to come visit any time (though this year is pretty expensive... wait at least till after the Olympics otherwise the hotel rates are killer).

Welcome to Beijing and welcome to China. I suspect you might find a place that is a bit different to what is portrayed on the news. Not perfect by any means... but not all bad.

Warmest to all,
Mightygoobi

Thank you for answering, mightygoobi. Good luck with the disaster responses and good health to all of you in China

When you come back, for reference, when I said Republic of China I actually meant the ROC (Taiwan) as opposed to the PRC. What do you think?


Open-mindedly,

LordZarth

Open-mindedly,

Brings up a quoote that I do not know whom to attribute to.

Keep your mind open, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Glad you're OK mightgoobi. I hope you'll still comeback sometime and tell me what you think the avergae Chinese individual thinks about my comments. I genuinely think the Chinese are wonderful and kind people.

I am a canadian who has been living in china for a year, and here is what I have to say:



right. there are a lot of action-rpgs in china along with a ton of mmorpgs to. Why don't they ever get to n.america?    Anyway, next topic:



I am not mightygoobi, but I'll also comment.
Personally, I think that everybody has a bit of a misimpression here. The Communist Party says he's evil, while he's an honorary citizen in Canada. I think that he's just a guy trying to do the best, and who is getting badly smeared by the Communists. On that note, he has been accused of organising the protests in Tibet.
That brings me to another point. Here, in china, according to the media it was a riot, not a peaceful protest. They have a point: several houses got burned down by protesters. Anyway, why would the Dalai Lama orgainise this if Buddhism is a peaceful religion?

Final bit: Just to tell everyone here, china is not communist! The only thing that is communist about this country is the name of the government. Pollution is not due to the government, rather, it is due to capitalists who only care about money, and not the environment (this seems familiar somehow  ). I have never seen a single indication of communism ever since I got here.

Anyway, just my two bits.

First we have a major earthquake. Now we have flood rains. It is not nice and now there is nothing to do. But the positive spin is that I now have time to post.

Jpinard said:



I fully agree that Linfen and Tianying are disaster zones. Furthermore, those are of course not the only places in China that are polluted. You don't even need to leave Beijing to find some terrible pollution. You will find no disagreement from me that things need to seriously improve regarding environmental management.



When you say this bugs you, I presume you mean "Tiananmen Square shows that the Chinese government is vicious, doesn't care for human rights and even attacks its own people". I posted in the America Superpower thread some of my thoughts on Tiananmen Square. In summary I said:

i) Tiananmen was terrible. Really really terrible. It should never happen again. Fully agreed.
ii) The majority of students involved in Tiananmen were from two of the Party's greatest feeder Universities (which says something about the 'super mind control' of the Party). It is highly likely that the students involved in Tiananmen square are now themselves deciding Party policy as Party officials. This is a good thing and a sign of evolution in government thinking.
iii) Tiananmen Square happened in 1989. That's almost 20 years ago. During that year, George Bush Senior came to power. RainMan won best picture. Hulk Hogan became WWF champion. Soviet Union withdrew from Afganistan. Wasn't that all quite a long time ago? I don't think people in the US comment as regularly on the policies of George Bush Senior or how wonderful a movie RainMan was, with as much frequency as "TianAnMen, Tank Student and evil China!". Fair enough that Tiananmen was a very major event - and China has had many major events since 1989 - good and bad.

Let me add something to show my personal thoughts. In 1999, NATO and CIA collaborated on a mission in Belgrade which resulted in the bombing of the Chinese embassy. 3 were killed and 17+ were seriously injured. This came at a time when China was fiercely in opposition to NATO / American military action in the Balkan region. My understanding is that the US apologised, explaining that they were hunting high value military targets. But intelligence was difficult to obtain in the region of the Balkans, so their maps were not 100% accurate and so the bombs mistakenly hit the Chinese embassy. As a measure of positive faith, the US handed over the military maps they used. China responded by pointing out that the local Lonely Planet guides were more accurate than the military maps - and accused the US of intentionally bombing the embassy.

Tensions were outrage in China. Just imagine if China had bombed an American embassy and then said sorry about all your dead people, we missed... aiming for the guy behind you. Students and others rioted outside the American embassy in Beijing. We throw stones, bricks. The Chinese Honour Guard was summoned to defend the American embassy. We cursed them as traitors, protecting the very Americans who were bombing our brothers. And we were outraged at our government for not being more aggressive against America. Indeed, many of us felt the American apology was very half-hearted - refering to US government statement that the Chinese government was blowing the incident out of proportion to divert attention away from other matters (like the 10th anniversary of Tiananmen square). When I read this, I personally wanted to be athe embassy myself to throw more bricks, hurl more insults, inflict more pain.

Today, occasionally, I will launch into a tirade against America for the 'embassy bomb'.

And I shouldn't. America, and it's attitude towards China, should not be judge on one bad incident. Yes, the US has done bad things. And this was a VERY bad thing. It also happen 10 years ago. And much has changed since then. There is a new person in charge of the US country. There are new Ministers and people in charge of the US army. There is a whole new generation of US leaders making decisions - better decisions than the leaders before. We should not forget what happened to the Chinese embassy and those who were killed. And we should also not be stuck on that one incident.

So... this is how I feel. The embassy bomb happened ten years ago. Tiananmen happened twenty years ago.

(there are a million websites on the embassy bomb in Chinese... I presume you can find good one's in English with Google. The one I found first was the wikipaedia entry and I'm sure there are others.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade

Jpinard wrote:





My understanding of your point is that the Chinese government takes a lot more from Tibet than it gives back.

The way I consider things, the Chinese government has invested a lot in infrastructure in Tibet. As you know, Tibet is a very dry place, with minimal access to water, fresh fruit and vegetables etc. A regular complaint of visitors is that it's trouble to have water to shower - well, I can't speak for all, I speak for myself then. Developing the roads, the pipes, the buildings, the bridges to pump in water, food, oil, coal, electricity costs money.

Now, Tibet pays minimal taxes. Firstly, Tibetans get tax breaks. Secondly, the GDP of Tibet is very low compared to the boomtowns in the east. So the money to build infrastrcuture must come somewhere outside of Tibet. I don't know where it comes from. I presume the rich places like Shanghai and Beijing.

At the end of the day, does the money that China has invested in Tibet equal the money that it has got from Tibet. I have totally no idea. Also, I accept that Shanghai is doing much better than Tibet in terms of development. So probably, there is net negative for Tibet.

All provinces in China are expected to pay / contributed something to the central government which then distributes resources back out. I think this is the way most countries work. I suppose every province will always argue that it gives more than it gets back. If I was a province, I'd argue that anyway. But it's not like the central China government takes everything and gives back nothing to Tibet. Perhaps we can have a debate on the fair balance - and on that you will win because I don't know the details. I do know though that the roads, the buildings, the water, the food - all come from outside of Tibet at cost to the country.

One other topic thing - there are 3 provinces in China that contribute nothing at all. Taiwan, Macau and Hong Kong. I accept Taiwan sees itself as independent so paying tax to the mainland could be political impossible. But I sometimes wonder about Hong Kong. It is the richest of the sons, but gives nothing to the parent. I guess this is the blessing from its history with England.



I agreed with you above about how China needs to do better to managing pollution. Absolutely. I wanted to comment on the Three Gorges Dam project. It has, as you are saying, caused much displacement of peoples, changing of local habitats and all this is environmental damage. But I think it's important that the goal of the Dam is to provide hydro power to the country so China can stop burning so much coal. It's not like we are building a dam so we can kill fish. None of us here like coal mines or coal burning - it's smelly and smoggy. So, when the day comes that I can turn on my computer and play Galciv2 using hydropower not coal power, that's a plus. Doesn't China always get criticised about coal? Well, we're doing something about it and responding to the cricism. It certainly not the perfect solution - but energy to power 1.3 billion consumers must come from somewhere. And better water than coal. built.




I agree with the comment that there are corruption officials in the Chinese government. It's really bad and upsetting for normal citizens. And I think any government has this problem.

On the issue of intellectual property ownership, it's a good point. IP protection in China is poor. However, it's also interesting to consider who's buying all the fake CDs, Gucci handbags etc.

Consider DVDs. There are more DVD movies in English than any other language (at least that what it seems when I go to a DVD store and there are 20 shelves of English movies and one small old box of Chinese DVDs). Most Chinese don't speak English very well or at all. So, it's usually not the Chinese that are buying copies of Spiderman 3 or Legends of the Fall.

Consider luxury goods e.g. Rolex watches. We KNOW that most Rolex's in China are fake. If you give a Rolex as a gift to a friend in Beijing, it's almost insulting. Same goes for Gucci and DKNY and whatever else. So, it's usually not the Chinese are buying the fakes.

In my experience, DVD stores and 'fake markets' are filled with (a) tourists and ( expats. People that can understand English DVD movies and for whom a Cartier watch will be impressive when it goes back home to Geneva or Paris or New York. People who can show off their Northface jacket or Mount Blanc pen and have friends go 'ooooh' instead of laughing. Now, China shouldn't be making them in the first place and I'm not saying that the IP violators are sweet angels. But a market needs producers AND buyers... and it's not really the Chinese that are buying. China is at fault here for the IP abuse... and if the tourists and expats (who are usually from the very countries that keep criticising China for IP abuse) stopped buying, I think that would be the greatest way to stop piracy.

I need a bit of time to think and rest now. Will respond to your other good points later Jpinard.