I’m going to be overly simplistic with this statement but it should properly reflect what I intend to convey.

Mightygoobi, from what you have stated and demonstrated in this forum I would have to say that china is no longer a communist country. It seems that China is in the midst of a social and political revolution that is throwing off the shackles of Marxism. It is doing so in a fashion that is reducing the overt destructiveness that in the past has faced most nations when they redirect their national energies from one political ideology to another.

In the United States we have had such times ourselves, revolutions that changed the fundamental rules of the structure and relationship between the government and the people. I site as examples The Sherman antitrust act of 1890, it prevented people from gaining control of large segments of our economy by use of tactics that had the effect of stifling the creative abilities of individuals in the marketplace. (I was not until Teddy Roosevelt took office that the full force and effectiveness of this was used and reshaped our nation’s economy and the relationship between government and business) .

I also cite the civil rights act of 1866 YES 1866 NOT 1966



This changed the relationship between people and government again in a fashion that did not bear fruition for a long time but set in motion the foundations of a movement that one hundred years later brought us closer to the original ideals espoused in our constitution.

The Entire presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Too many examples to list on this one; the entire revolution was called “The new deal”.

Granted China is going about this in a totally different fashion but the concept seems to be the same.

Oh, really?

I read in an article that China's government is ordering the construction of street cameras to watch people and make sure they aren't saying anything bad about the government. I think China's government is shifting back to its old ways.    

Wow..They don't have them yet? Here in "Communist" Philadelphia USA we have them

http://infowars.net/articles/july2006/120706surveillance.htm


so gee, I guess the communist need to catch up with us freedom lovers and get those camaras in place...
WWW Link

They couldnt do that even if they wanted to. "The Genie" is out of the bottle, abd there's no chance of getting it back in again - even if they wanted to, which I dont believe they do.

1.4Bn people have started to get a taste of more liberal practices - there's no going back now. You cant suppress 1.4Bn people when they have a mind to go in a direction. Its a bit like King Canute and the waves - a myth based on wishful thinking.

We shouldnt get too jingoistic about Democracy, its not perfect by any means - in fact theoretical Communism is widely acknowledged as the perfect theoretical form of government. The acknowledged problem with the latter though is it does not take into account human nature, is somewhat Utopian, and never works for long in practice.

Lets face it, for the most part, Politicians in the West are no longer anything to cheer about these days. The days of Intellectuals and Visionaries going into Politics in the West have long gone, given the odd few exceptions. They have, in the most part, been replaced with ego maniacs who like the sound of their own voices more than Public Service. Those who have the strength of character and intellect we need in Politicians, stay away from the current political Cess Pit, and I cant blame them. Western Politics is now just a sea of Popularist short term nonsense with no Strategic thought.

But for all the hassles I'd rather be the way we are in "The West" than have to suffer the alternatives. As Churchill so wisely expressed it:

"It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried".

Regards
Zy

I understand what you are saying and my first thought is "I agree". Then I think for a moment and what comes to mind is Hillery Clinton (and Bill).

I used to work for Bill Clinton back in 1991 so I have seen what goes on behind the secnes.. Both Hillery & Bill are "Intellectuals and Visionaries" and then I think about two U.S. Senators I have done work for, one of them be Sen. Lautttenburg of New Jersey, he even at the age of 91 is an Intellectual and Visionary.

I then think about a few other people I know who either have run for, intend to run for or currently hold office and they are "Intellectuals and Visionaries".

So now I say to myself "How do I reconsile what my mind and heart project in my thoughts as to the accuracy and truthfulness of your statement with the contray facts that I know?"

for all of you who still think Tianmen is some hideous plot by the communist to crush aspiring democracy lovers in china. I think people should really find out who strongly consulted and indirectly advocated for the military crack down of that protest.

The chinese government at the time consulted Milton Friedman from the university of chicago, with an all expense trip paid to Shanghai for his godly economic advise about what action should be taken towards the protesters. Friedman's answer was that china should open up its markets and have free market at any and all costs. In one word, the economy of china should be exactly like that of the west. By the way, Friedman went to china twice, before the protest occured and during the time of the protest.

The students did not like it, but they were the minority, because the workers were the one who came out in force. They were not happy about the sudden and rapid dereulation of prices and the losing of jobs. The government enact such economic policies without consulting the massive labour force. The government decide to well...sent in the military to quell the protest. And the economic policy was in a way a shock mearsure to get the chinese people used to the new reality. Massive capitalism has arrived in china, therefore people should get used to it pretty fast and quickly or else.

Well...people did get used to it nowadays, as can be seen by the world in china. But then, don't forget, the government gave the world what it wants, which is economic freedom within its own borders, and a world manufacuring center to boot with very cheap labour force. The ironic thing about china as far as freedom goes, in china, you can be poor or rich, and no one will give a damn about it. That is freedom, but then i don't think that is the definition of what freedom has in mind to a westerner. But then, the chinese are happy with it, well i can't say everyone, but those who stands to benefits or knows how to turn a darwainan advantage into an advantage for themselves.

Oh yeah, Milton Friedman also went into other developing nations to give out the same advise as he did to the chinese leaders, and they enacted similar shock measurs.

Here is the links to what i am referring to:


http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/short-film

Quote from DarkStar7

"The government is so paranoid of control they fear and destroy any significant group establishment whether religious, politicial, or human rights. What I'm trying to say is to share that power. Somethings are much more efficiently done, than governments can ever dream of. For example, the blood distribution in America are done by the Red Cross and Carter bloodcare. Both are non-profit, non-government entities that make enough money to pay for it own expenses. For a pint of blood Carter charges the hospital around $91, the publicly funded government hospital buys it and turns around to charge Americans $300."

The Chinese government also removes and sells organs from live Falun Dafa practitioners in China. This is frowned upon by much of the international community. There were more Falun Dafa practitioners in China in 1999 when Jiang Zemin was in power than were Chinese Communist party members. Jiang Zemin got jealous and decided he would use the country's police force to detain, torture and brutalize people who believe in compassion and non-violence than fight crime. I admit, I do practice Falun Dafa but its something that doesn't get nearly as much attention as it deserves. You know, seeing as how it is the largest non-violent movement in human history. Anyways, that is what I figure you meant when you said "group establishment."

Usually in the international media, they lump Falun Dafa in the dissident or religious group that is being persecuted. But Falun Dafa isn't really dissenting, nor is it a religion, its a buddhist/Daoist, cultivation practice that focuses on removing attachments and being a better person. All China has to do to get Falun Dafa practitioners to be quiet is to stop horribly brutalizing them, but as you said the Chinese government is paranoid and won't be happy till all Falun Dafa practitioners are swept under the rug, expecially in the rundown up to the Olympics.

Things are getting better in China though and it probably has a lot to do with the internet and Chinese citizens playing a larger role in the international community. It is interesting to read posts from people who are from China.

Do you knwo what the Falun Gong people in Canada says after what happened to the sichuan earthquake, they publicly stated that such natural disaster is a punishment for the communits communist government. Such statement just makes the chinese people hates them even more, especially ones that goes abroad to study. Let's just put it this way, amongst chinese in china, Falun Gongs are the most annoying bunch.

Mightygoobi, i don't suppose you could do the translation for Great Britain could you?

If the general direction and pace of Change in China was back towards a Totalitarian State - of whatever nature - I would have more sympathy, maybe even support " the protesters" more than I have. However, the change is towards a more liberal existence, for that we should all be grateful and supportive, not hyper-critical.

As always in Major events and trends, there are a significant group of people who love to pick away at the edges citing individual events and actions as somehow indicative of the "nasty guys over there". When things move on ahead on a gargantuan scale, as is happening in China, things will go wrong, authority sometimes will get oppressive - whatever. Its inevitable, they are doing in Decades what took the rest of us Generations to do.

Those who protest loudly - almost at times, smugly - should take a look at the last 100 years or so of their own Country, any Country ...... then significantly rephrase their protests. Its an incredible "Holier than Thou" attitude. By comparison with some of these vocal protesters, even King Canute had a good thing going for himself. Many are of course genuine of heart and feelings, fair enough. Too many however, are publicity and ego driven. The latter should leave well alone and stop meddling - and the rest of us should make it plain that it is unacceptable to meddle in that way.

Utopian of course, never happen, there will always be loud mouths around, we just have to be sensible enough to sift the ego clowns from the constructive protests. We should help China with the positives, not continually yell about the negatives. The former takes courage and intellect - the latter is not hard, just takes a few days at "cheap shot boot camp" to achieve.

Regards
Zy

Spacepony said:



I think you are right on this Spacepony - that China is going through its own social / political revolution. A couple of side points to add to your comment.

First, Communism itself is a relatively recent ideology for China. We have a history going back 5000 years. Communism came into play only 80 years ago. Sometimes I get the feeling there is a sense that China has been Communist forever.

Secondly, China's concept of Communism has been in a state of constant evolution - which often makes it hard for me to understand what it really means. The unsound policies of the 'Great Leap Forward' in 1958-1960, the 'intellectual golden age' of 1960-1966, the tragedy of the cultural revolution from 1966-1976, the open door policies of Deng Xiaoping and now this 'WTO / free markets and capitalism' period are all under the banner of 'Communism'. And that's all been in 50 years. That's a very short time to have a lot change. Added to this is the various emotions and special meaning that 'Communism' has to people outside China - I often find it difficult to discuss when the parties in the conversation mean different things by the same word. Do appreciate your insights.

General Etrius said:



If you have a link to the article General Etrius, I'd be grateful to have a look at that article. I like to read about what English media says about China.

It's true there is a big push to install cameras on our Beijing streets right now. I understand its for traffic monitoring - our traffic is enormously bad. I don't know if that's what the article is referring to. I am hoping they put MORE cameras to stop our taxi drivers being ridiculous all the time.

I suppose it could be argued that installing cameras is a way to watch people and make sure they aren't saying bad things about the government. If that's true, I'd be annoyed - is there a reference as to where these cameras are being installed? I'd hope my tax dollars are being spent on something other than installing highly sophisticated microphone equipped audio visual cameras in my office just to listen to my boring rants. I would hope that things like earthquake rescue take a bit of priority over observing me for political dissent.


Zydor said:



I think this is right Zydor - things are in motion now for a set of changes that are not going to be easily stopped. From one perspective, that's all good e.g. more liberal society, greater expressions of freedom, more political dialogue etc. Furthemore, people are slowly being pulled out of poverty, education is increasing, discussion with overseas groups is ever more.

Just adding the other view which is sometimes made here - all these new liberalism come at a cost which some people are unhappy about.

I've made the comment earlier about the older generation quering whether all these new 'freedoms' are actually good when compared to what they've lost. There is also a massive spike in divorce rates, an increase in crime, drugs, prostitution, infidelity, sexual disease, teenage pregnancy, alcoholism. Although there is less poverty overall, there is also a much greater wealth disparity between rich and poor than ever before. The new form of government offers minimal to no welfare. I agree that not all of this is directly because of the increasingly liberalism - and I suspect there is some coincidence.

One of the challenges we as a country must face is how to embrace the 'good' of the new form of society whilst doing our best to minimise the 'bad'. I don't have any simple answers for that.

To Spacepony's and Zydor's point about what sort of person wants to be in government - I have given strong thought about being in government here because I want a more directly affect the way things happen (hopefully I'm closer to a visionaries than a cess pit). Two reasons against it for now - one, the pay for public work is much much lower than private work and for purely selfish personal reasons, I want to stay private for now. Maybe when I'm more financially secure... Two, wouldn't it be weird if I posted on stardock 'defending' china... AND REALLY WAS A COMMUNIST PARTY GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL??? I wouldn't have much credible about not being a propaganda agent then

Maxsw1 said:





Elias01 said:



Here's my thoughts on Falun Gong. I'm sure Elias and Maxsw01 are likely to know more than I so welcome your thoughts.

There is a part of Falun Gong that is purely a "buddhist/Daoist cultivation practice that focuses on removing attachments and being a better person". From what I've observed, it's a little bit of yoga and meditation mixed together. This is purely harmless and probably a lot of fun and enlightenment.

To your point Maxsw01, I understand that you are saying the Communist Party was worried that more people were practicing Falun Gong than were registered members of the Party, so we should kill Falun Gong? With respect, there are many groups with members more than the Communist Party - what is the special thing about Falun Gong? From owners of cars, to practitioners of karate, to internet users who play a certain MMPORG that is popular in China. So why is Falun Gong the special treatment? It is very unclear to me.

I am guessing there is also a group of people using the Falun Gong name, that practices the 'yoga' (I'm sorry Maxsw01, I don't know how else to call it), but is also very active with 'other stuff'.

I don't pretend to know what the other stuff is - and I'm guessing at least part of it is to criticise the Chinese government. There's nothing automatic wrong with that. What is illogic to me is that plenty of people criticise the Chinese government - in and outside of China. So again, what is the special thing about Falun Gong that automatically targets it for special treatment? (note that if the sole 'other stuff' is, we criticise the chinese government, then it's obviously extremely difficult to justify "brutalizing and torture and organ harvesting" that you say)

Then there are reports of a group that cheers the earthquake for killing lots of Communists and hopes that we can have another earthquake soon to kill more. This group wrote an open letter to the Chinese people saying that the earthquake also is vengeance for attacking Tibet and taking the torch to Mt. Everest. Of course, that provokes a strong reaction in me. And makes me very against Falun Gong - even though I don't know more information.

But perhaps a more important query is - if I was going to condemn China or provoke with a comment about the earthquake, why would I do so through a group that promotes the meditation and practice of being a better person? And why would the group allow the use of its name in such a way? Surely, it opposes being dragged into politics? Even if I was a member of the group and I wanted to make a comment about how good the earthquake was because it killed lots of Communists - why would I link my comment to that group and not, for example, my gym club, my golf club or my yoga club? Something here is not correct to me.

My over simple thinking is that it's not the Falun Gong 'yoga' that is the problem, it's the 'other stuff'. I don't pretend to know what the 'other stuff' is. It's an issue that there is too much illogic for me and no clear picture.

My personal opinion of China today is pretty favorable compared to years past. The old fears of a backward and dogmatic culture are fading

IMO the current government more resembles a corporate government than a communist government. Communism has proven to be a failure because it does not recognize the human need to rise above the pack. It is fine for starving masses but when bellies are full the people demand lipstick and levis. I truly believe that there is upward mobility for Chinese citizens today

The USA and China are two countries moving forward toward a convergance of culture, with the Chinese becoming a more free market economy interested in creating a healthy and happy middle class, in the same way that a successful corporation provides excellent wages and benefits to employees. Moving into the future the business of the USA and China will be business with political philosophy taking a back seat to pragmatism.

Personal freedom is likely to increase somewhat in China but security is the key to a healty society and in the USA we will see less personal freedom but an overall better quality of life. I think the most misunderstood thing about China is that the average citizen feels oppressed. The kind of personal freedom that our forefathers enjoyed will only return when the space frontier becomes a reality.

If we maintain mutual respect and minimize arrogance the future can be bright for both of our countries

I will say this about the falun gong, I don't have an opinion about them, but seriously, if they have grievances towards the government, don't do it at a time and in a manner that is consider to be inconsiderate to the earthquake victims. Before the earthquake, the Falun gong are alienated sector within and without of china as far as their fellow copatriat are concernced, now, wahtever sympathy they might ganered or credibility of their stories have been completely destroyed.

One further thing, as much as Falun gong like to sell their causes to the westeners about their inhuman plight, but the truth of it is, they should really think about how they are presented to their fellow chinese. If the majority of the Han Chinese don't like them, there is little hope that they will gain sympathy or people will go defending their causes, regardless of how sympathetic the foreigners are to their plight.

About the cameras, I beleive they are for monitoring traffic, and not monitoring people who make comments about the country.  Why? Because on TV you get footage from these cameras displayed to tell you what the traffic's like.

just ask the Londoners about cameras. Currently the city with the most heavy surveillance in the world. Not bad for a democracy, Big Brother would have been proud.
As for Falun Dafa, they have considerable talent in protesting abroad and their allegations have led to congressional inquiry in the USA and its equivalent in Canada. They lost steam quickly due to the grossly ridiculous allegations they went on to make about how the Communist Party ran a directed systematic campaign to single out their practitioners for organ theft. One story ran how their undercover source visited a hospital to inquire about organ transplants, requesting specifically Falun Dafa practitioners organs, whereupon the evil doctors gleefully replied that they had many available and would gladly provide them. A glorious throwback to the stories of evil Huns raping nuns and bayoneting babies. Of course, if you believe those stories too, you should keep reading the Epoch Times and other nonsense (warning, continuously recycled stories).